From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Sep 2 12:21:39 2024 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2024 19:21:39 -0700 Subject: [COFF] More LCM fallout In-Reply-To: <20240830220904.36A4692CF4CF@ary.qy> References: <20240713131716.A741818C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <21DB8095-4D00-42ED-891E-CA3BDBE5CB23@eschatologist.net> <6f445be5-cde8-4f22-9b59-a43d3429a495@insinga.com> <7w1q38wym6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <387FE153-E84C-4345-9F70-0682801018BA@eschatologist.net> <929aa508-4f6b-4019-8393-35f1e3f1611d@halwitz.org> <20240830220904.36A4692CF4CF@ary.qy> Message-ID: <8977E507-5CB1-48B5-BBFF-050AA2AFAB94@eschatologist.net> On Aug 30, 2024, at 3:09 PM, John Levine wrote: > > It appears that Dan Halbert said: >> Late followup in this thread: here is the Christie's auction for items >> being auctioned off: >> https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-collection/lots/3726 > > Many of the bids are underwhelming. KA-10 for $300, KI-10 for $400, KS-10 for $400. Underwhelming, or reasonable? It’s a serious pain to get a Christie’s account, plus fees & tax add about 25% on top of a bid. The only reason eBay prices for old hardware are so high right now has been a bunch of YouTubers chasing clout and treating old hardware like a Funko Pop to put on a shelf to show how cool you are. > Somebody wants the IBM 7090, bid $11,000 but still well below the $40-$60K estimate, > and somebody really wants the CDC 6500, bid $160,000. > > All plus packing and shipping from Seattle, of course. It doesn’t help that the kinds of people “helping” Christie’s put together their estimates are YouTubers chasing clout. -- Chris From johnl at taugh.com Mon Sep 2 19:45:23 2024 From: johnl at taugh.com (John R Levine) Date: 2 Sep 2024 11:45:23 +0200 Subject: [COFF] More LCM fallout In-Reply-To: <8977E507-5CB1-48B5-BBFF-050AA2AFAB94@eschatologist.net> References: <20240713131716.A741818C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <21DB8095-4D00-42ED-891E-CA3BDBE5CB23@eschatologist.net> <6f445be5-cde8-4f22-9b59-a43d3429a495@insinga.com> <7w1q38wym6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <387FE153-E84C-4345-9F70-0682801018BA@eschatologist.net> <929aa508-4f6b-4019-8393-35f1e3f1611d@halwitz.org> <20240830220904.36A4692CF4CF@ary.qy> <8977E507-5CB1-48B5-BBFF-050AA2AFAB94@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <38553ca3-6cf3-858e-5dbc-14e06bb5158a@taugh.com> On Sun, 1 Sep 2024, Chris Hanson wrote: >> It appears that Dan Halbert said: >>> Late followup in this thread: here is the Christie's auction for items >>> being auctioned off: >>> https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/firsts-history-computing-paul-g-allen-collection/lots/3726 >> >> Many of the bids are underwhelming. KA-10 for $300, KI-10 for $400, KS-10 for $400. > > Underwhelming, or reasonable? Both, I would say. It's hard to believe those lowball bids are serious since it would cost a fortune to pack and move those machines. As the small print says, you have to disassemble them and it is not easy to take them apart in a way that gives you any hope of putting them back together later. Regards, John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From mike.ab3ap at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 08:25:10 2024 From: mike.ab3ap at gmail.com (Mike Markowski) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2024 18:25:10 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Sun mug Message-ID: I'm cleaning out my desk as retirement looms (a few more months) and found my Sun coffee mug! https://udel.edu/~mm/sun/ The back of the mug says such good things, yet... Mike Markowski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at horsfall.org Fri Sep 6 11:11:43 2024 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2024 11:11:43 +1000 (AEST) Subject: [COFF] Open Day at UNSW 7th Sep Message-ID: <1e2350c6-eedd-c7b9-18c5-cbe744e73253@horsfall.org> That's where it all began for Unix in Oz (the Dept of Power Systems paid for the Ed5 tape, as I recall). I'm told that the campus has changed so much it's now unrecognisable... https://www.openday.unsw.edu.au/planner -- Dave From coff at tuhs.org Mon Sep 9 03:39:12 2024 From: coff at tuhs.org (Grant Taylor via COFF) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2024 12:39:12 -0500 Subject: [COFF] More LCM fallout In-Reply-To: <38553ca3-6cf3-858e-5dbc-14e06bb5158a@taugh.com> References: <20240713131716.A741818C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <21DB8095-4D00-42ED-891E-CA3BDBE5CB23@eschatologist.net> <6f445be5-cde8-4f22-9b59-a43d3429a495@insinga.com> <7w1q38wym6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <387FE153-E84C-4345-9F70-0682801018BA@eschatologist.net> <929aa508-4f6b-4019-8393-35f1e3f1611d@halwitz.org> <20240830220904.36A4692CF4CF@ary.qy> <8977E507-5CB1-48B5-BBFF-050AA2AFAB94@eschatologist.net> <38553ca3-6cf3-858e-5dbc-14e06bb5158a@taugh.com> Message-ID: On 9/2/24 04:45, John R Levine wrote: > Both, I would say.  It's hard to believe those lowball bids are serious > since it would cost a fortune to pack and move those machines.  As the > small print says, you have to disassemble them and it is not easy to > take them apart in a way that gives you any hope of putting them back > together later. That seems to be predicated on the desire to take them part in a way that gives you any hope of putting them back together. Is there any reason to think that scrappers wouldn't toss a lo-ball bid? -- Grant. . . . -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4033 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From coff at tuhs.org Thu Sep 12 08:37:56 2024 From: coff at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey via COFF) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 08:37:56 +1000 Subject: [COFF] Fwd: History tract during the next IWMP9 in Paris next May Message-ID: Hi all, Edouard asked me to pass this e-mail on to both TUHS and COFF lists. Cheers, Warren ----- Forwarded message from Edouard Klein ----- Subject: History tract during the next IWMP9 in Paris next May Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2024 22:46:30 +0200 (1 week, 4 days, 19 hours ago) Dear Unix history enthusiasts, The 11th International Workshop on Plan 9 will be held in Paris on May 22-24 2025. One of the focus area this year will be Plan 9's history and its influence on later computer science and industry trends. The history team at the CNAM (where the conference will be held) has agreed to help us prepare for the event and stands ready to record oral histories, or any other format that would make the participants happy. They had organized in 2017 a "colloque" at which Clem spoke (and I listened somewhere in the audience) on UNIX: https://technique-societe.cnam.fr/colloque-international-unix-en-europe-entre-innovation-diffusion-et-heritage-913008.kjsp I will keep the list posted as our efforts pan out, but I thought I'd get the word out as soon as possible. I you have historical resources on Plan 9 or Inferno, or are reminded of any interesting tidbits, you can also share them here, as this list is already recognized by historians as a legitimate source. The program committee members, many (if not all) of whom roam this very list, would welcome any proposal or contributions in this area :) The CfP is at: http://iwp9.org/ Looking forward to read what you care to share, or to seeing you in person in Paris, Cheers, Edouard. ----- End forwarded message ----- From douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu Fri Sep 13 00:04:44 2024 From: douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu (Douglas McIlroy) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 10:04:44 -0400 Subject: [COFF] History tract during the next IWMP9 in Paris next May Message-ID: > I you have historical resources on Plan 9 or Inferno, or are reminded of > any interesting tidbits, you can also share them here, as this list is > already recognized by historians as a legitimate source. Can someone tell me where the original "here" of the quoted message is? Thanks, Doug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.winalski at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 00:11:51 2024 From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 10:11:51 -0400 Subject: [COFF] History tract during the next IWMP9 in Paris next May In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 10:05 AM Douglas McIlroy < douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > I you have historical resources on Plan 9 or Inferno, or are reminded of > > any interesting tidbits, you can also share them here, as this list is > > already recognized by historians as a legitimate source. > > I think "here" == TUHS. I received the original on TUHS with a [TUHS] prefix on the subject line. -Paul W. > Can someone tell me where the original "here" of the quoted message is? > > Thanks, > Doug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edouardklein at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 00:32:54 2024 From: edouardklein at gmail.com (Edouard Klein) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2024 16:32:54 +0200 Subject: [COFF] History tract during the next IWMP9 in Paris next May In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8A54FF0A-296F-4839-B6AC-42371909B9A7@gmail.com> Hi Doug, By "here" I meant the list itself :) TUHS is actually read by historians. I don't know about COFF, though. Sorry for the awkward formulation. Btw, thank you warren for letting the message through ! Cheers Edouard. Le 12 septembre 2024 16:04:44 GMT+02:00, Douglas McIlroy a écrit : >> I you have historical resources on Plan 9 or Inferno, or are reminded of >> any interesting tidbits, you can also share them here, as this list is >> already recognized by historians as a legitimate source. > >Can someone tell me where the original "here" of the quoted message is? > >Thanks, >Doug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athornton at gmail.com Mon Sep 16 01:08:35 2024 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 08:08:35 -0700 Subject: [COFF] History tract during the next IWMP9 in Paris next May In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would be shocked if those people in the history of computing who read TUHS don't also read COFF. Speaking as a failed historian and person who prefers Unix-and-unix-derivatives to other computer operating systems, anyway. Adam On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 2:51 PM Paul Winalski wrote: > On Thu, Sep 12, 2024 at 10:05 AM Douglas McIlroy < > douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >> > I you have historical resources on Plan 9 or Inferno, or are reminded of >> > any interesting tidbits, you can also share them here, as this list is >> > already recognized by historians as a legitimate source. >> >> I think "here" == TUHS. I received the original on TUHS with a [TUHS] > prefix on the subject line. > > -Paul W. > >> Can someone tell me where the original "here" of the quoted message is? >> >> Thanks, >> Doug >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuff at riddermarkfarm.ca Sat Sep 21 01:56:16 2024 From: stuff at riddermarkfarm.ca (Stuff Received) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 11:56:16 -0400 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Re: Maximum Array Sizes in 16 bit C In-Reply-To: <11d46ab4-b90c-83fe-131a-ee399eebf342@horsfall.org> References: <11d46ab4-b90c-83fe-131a-ee399eebf342@horsfall.org> Message-ID: Moved to COFF. On 2024-09-20 11:07, Dave Horsfall wrote (in part): > > Giggle... In a device driver I wrote for V6, I used the expression > > "0123"[n] > > and the two programmers whom I thought were better than me had to ask me > what it did... > > -- Dave, brought up on PDP-11 Unix[*] > > [*] > I still remember the days of BOS/PICK/etc, and I staked my career on Unix. Working on embedded systems, we often used constructs such as a[-4] to either read or modify stuff on the stack (for that particular compiler+processor only). S. From coff at tuhs.org Sat Sep 21 03:15:28 2024 From: coff at tuhs.org (segaloco via COFF) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 17:15:28 +0000 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Re: Maximum Array Sizes in 16 bit C In-Reply-To: References: <11d46ab4-b90c-83fe-131a-ee399eebf342@horsfall.org> Message-ID: On Friday, September 20th, 2024 at 8:56 AM, Stuff Received wrote: > Moved to COFF. > > On 2024-09-20 11:07, Dave Horsfall wrote (in part): > > > Giggle... In a device driver I wrote for V6, I used the expression > > > > "0123"[n] > > > > and the two programmers whom I thought were better than me had to ask me > > what it did... > > > > -- Dave, brought up on PDP-11 Unix[*] > > > > [*] > > I still remember the days of BOS/PICK/etc, and I staked my career on Unix. > > > Working on embedded systems, we often used constructs such as a[-4] to > either read or modify stuff on the stack (for that particular > compiler+processor only). > > S. My takeaway on out of bounds array access is you're taking the wheel in your own hands WRT the memory characteristics of your application. If you're using some pointer to the middle of a known memory region (e.g. I/O registers) then you're fine stepping a subscript out of bounds in either direction. If you're making assumptions about how compiler and linker are going to map C abstractions into RAM/stack...then you better be prepared for a compiler author to have a different mapping plan in mind. As John Mashey put it, paraphrasing, C doesn't require you to agonize over all the details of the machine, but it also allows you to get at many of those details if you so choose. - Matt G. From douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu Sat Sep 21 10:22:05 2024 From: douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu (Douglas McIlroy) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2024 20:22:05 -0400 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Maximum Array Sizes in 16 bit C Message-ID: Moved to Coff, because it's about programming style, not history. > Perhaps I'm missing something? Clever arithmetic in the index > calculation aside, this is semantically different than using an actual > negative integer to index into an array? Moreover, if the intent is to > start the sequence with 0, why set `fib(0)` to 1? How is this > substantially different from the usual way of writing this: I said the Fibonacci example was silly. Maybe you'll be more convinced by the binomial-coefficient program below. The array of interest is fib. base is simply scaffolding and doesn't appear in the working code. You won't find the ith Fibonacci in base[i]; it's in fib(i). But fib(-1) exists. What's important is that the C convention of array indexes beginning at 0 has been circumvented. I could be accused of subterfuge in depending on the semantics of static storage to initialize fib(-1) to zero. Subterfuge or not, it's customary C usage. The binomial-coefficient program relies on "out-of-bounds" zeros abutting two sides of a triangle. int base[N][N+2]; #define binom(n,i) base[n][(i)+1] void fill() { binom(0,0) = 1; for(n=1; n From douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu Sun Sep 22 00:37:43 2024 From: douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu (Douglas McIlroy) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2024 10:37:43 -0400 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Maximum Array Sizes in 16 bit C Message-ID: Mea culpa. I thought I could offer a simple example, but my binomial-coefficient program is wrong, and loses its force when corrected. For a convincing example, see the program in https://digitalcommons.dartmouth.edu/cs_tr/385/ Unfortunately you have to read a couple of pages of explanation to see what this program is up to. It's a fun problem, though. Doug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ralph at inputplus.co.uk Mon Sep 23 22:12:21 2024 From: ralph at inputplus.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 13:12:21 +0100 Subject: [COFF] Maximum Array Sizes in 16 bit C In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20240923121221.94883207D9@orac.inputplus.co.uk> Hi Doug, > int base[N][N+2]; > #define binom(n,i) base[n][(i)+1] Thanks for the interesting prompt. I've been having a think about it along the lines of sliding the ints in memory. Have you considered having a single dimension of ints and then accessing them as if a two-dimensional array, with [0][0] being offset? $ cat offset.c #include #define N 4 // N×N values #define L 3 // L columns of 0 to the left #define U 2 // U columns of 0 upwards int main() { char m[(U + N) * (L + N)] = "abcdefg" "hijklmn" "opq+BCD" // The '+' is a[0][0]. "rstEFGH" "uvwIJKL" "xyzMNOP"; char (*a)[L + N] = (char (*)[L + N])&m[U * (L + N) + L]; for (int y = -U; y < N; y++) { if (!y) putchar('\n'); for (int x = -L; x < N; x++) { if (!x) putchar(' '); putchar(a[y][x]); // y,x relative to ‘+’ } putchar('\n'); } } $ gcc -Wall -Wextra -Werror offset.c $ ./a.out abc defg hij klmn opq +BCD rst EFGH uvw IJKL xyz MNOP $ -- Cheers, Ralph. From douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu Tue Sep 24 06:59:14 2024 From: douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu (Douglas McIlroy) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 16:59:14 -0400 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Maximum Array Sizes in 16 bit C Message-ID: A summary of a couple of longer posts. Ralph Corderoy and I used different C syntax than to access an MxN array A, whose subscripts begin at M0 and N0 in the respective dimensions. Here's a somewhat simplified version of both. In our examples, M0 and M0 were negative. Mine: int base[M][N]; #define A(i,j) base[i-M0][j-N0] Ralph's int base[M][N]; int (*A)[N] = (int(*)[N])&base[-M0][-N0]; In my scheme element references must be written A(i,j). Ralph retains C array syntax, A[i][j]. Doug -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crossd at gmail.com Wed Sep 25 02:44:26 2024 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 12:44:26 -0400 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Maximum Array Sizes in 16 bit C In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 8:22 PM Douglas McIlroy wrote: > Moved to Coff, because it's about programming style, not history. Heh, I had deliberately removed the list in my response to you, but it's not too embarrassing to have this redirected back to COFF. :-) > > Perhaps I'm missing something? Clever arithmetic in the index > > calculation aside, this is semantically different than using an actual > > negative integer to index into an array? Moreover, if the intent is to > > start the sequence with 0, why set `fib(0)` to 1? How is this > > substantially different from the usual way of writing this: > > I said the Fibonacci example was silly. Maybe you'll be more convinced by the binomial-coefficient program below. > [snip] The caveat sent later notwithstanding, I agree that I was overly fixated on the Fibonacci example in my response and this better illustrates the motivation for the technique. Regardless, I feel like we're somewhat speaking at cross-purposes. In particular, this uses macros to introduce a more pleasant syntax, but at the language level, the index into the underlying array is always non-negative and within the array's defined bounds. This is qualitatively and quantitatively different from using an actual negative value in the actual indexing operation. - Dan C. From aki at insinga.com Sun Sep 29 10:17:41 2024 From: aki at insinga.com (Aron Insinga) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2024 20:17:41 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Maximum Array Sizes in 16 bit C In-Reply-To: <0B54746F-504A-40E0-AFFD-4486167FBAD5@iitbombay.org> References: <11d46ab4-b90c-83fe-131a-ee399eebf342@horsfall.org> <20240920171126.vgtl23xwj37kardb@illithid> <69643008-F7FE-4AC7-8519-B45E4C1CEA66@iitbombay.org> <0B54746F-504A-40E0-AFFD-4486167FBAD5@iitbombay.org> Message-ID: FWIW, I just saw this in code generated by bison:     (yyvsp[-4].string_val), (yyvsp[-2].string_val), (yyvsp[0].string_val) (IIUC) referencing the addresses under the top of the stack when passing $2, $4, $6 into a function from an action (skipping a couple of tokens).  So the sign just depends on which way the stack is growing. As for range checking of pointers into a malloc'd block of memory, the pointer could have just 2 things: the address at the start of the block and the pointer itself, some moving address in the block; and then before the start of the block malloc could stash the address of the end of the block (where it could be referenced by all pointers into the block).  So instead of a triple word, the pointer is a double word, and the malloc'd block has an extra word before it.  This must have been done before by someone, somewhere. I don't think of pointers and arrays in C as the same thing, but rather array references as an alternate syntax for pointer arithmetic (or vice versa). - Aron